Why Christian Education Matters More Than Ever with Dr. Todd Marrah

Education shapes the future—and faith shapes the soul. In this episode of First and Focused, Dr. Todd Marrah unpacks why Christian education is critical in today’s cultural moment and how spiritual formation prepares students for life, not just academics.

From leading Tree of Life Christian Schools to influencing education nationally and globally, Dr. Marrah shares leadership lessons, parenting wisdom, and practical ways families and businesses can support faith-based education. The conversation closes with a powerful reflection on fear, faith, and why Christmas should still blow our minds.

Connect With Todd Marrah: https://www.linkedin.com/in/todd-marrah-46187117/

Learn More About Tree of Life Christian Schools: https://tolcs.org/

Learn More about the Christian Education Network: https://www.ccv.org/news/announcing-todd-marrah-to-lead-the-new-united-states-christian-education-network

Connect with Mark Greaves: https://www.markgreaves.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

Is there anything that you've learned over the years, like how to have those difficult conversations, even with somebody you know at the heart level, but they're just not getting it done?

SPEAKER_01 0:07

I'm pretty sure it's important for us to learn to listen before we speak. Could we always learn to speak only that which we've heard? I think the answer is yes.

SPEAKER_04 0:17

I think a lot of a lot of folks that I know struggle sometimes with how long do I have to remain faithful?

SPEAKER_01 0:24

In the day-to-day, uh, I don't breathe without him. And the more I'm aware of that, the better.

SPEAKER_04 0:30

Welcome to First and Focused, the podcast where faith meets leadership. I know you're gonna put me on the spot. I don't know what you're gonna ask him to say. I'm Mark Greaves, and in each episode, I sit down with business and industry leaders who put God first in their work and stay focused on building his kingdom through their calling. I can sit here and and talk with you all day. Keep up the great work, brother.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

Lord is using you powerfully. I love you. I love watching what Jesus is doing in your life.

SPEAKER_04 1:00

Well, welcome everyone to the first and focus show where we incorporate leaders from various industries who put God first and then put Jesus front and center at their calling. I'm your host, Mark Greaves, and today we are joined by Dr. Pastor Todd Mara. Um, thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

What a privilege to be a part of this first podcast.

SPEAKER_04 1:23

Yeah, I'm pumped. So this is a uh this is a a dream come true for me to be able to just ask you whatever I want and we'll see what you have to say. I'm sure it's gonna be good. Cool. Well, let me give you an intro. I wrote it down because I know you personally, but like some of these titles are uh there's a lot of titles that you have now, so I'm not sure how you're keeping up with it all. But um Dr. Todd Mera, he is the superintendent of Tree of Life Christian Schools, the executive director of the National Christian Education Network, executive pastor at Rock City Church, uh where I attend, one of the largest and fastest growing churches in the country. Uh let's see, the board chair of the Association of Christian Schools International, which is 100 plus countries and I don't know how many thousands of schools um are incorporated there. Um husband of Jana. Uh that's probably the probably the best thing that you uh have ever figured out a swindle anybody else into doing.

SPEAKER_01 2:17

Amazing, amazing.

SPEAKER_04 2:17

Father of six, grandpa to many more than that, and then most importantly, a lover and follower of Jesus Christ. What did I miss?

SPEAKER_01 2:24

Oh, that's wonderful. What a gr what a great privilege it is to be used by the Lord in any capacity. That He would invite us into anything that He's doing and include us in anything is one of our life's greatest privileges.

SPEAKER_04 2:36

Well, before we kick off, would you um now that we're recording live, would you would you pray over the show real quick for us, just over our time?

unknown 2:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:44

Yeah. Father, what a blessing it is for me to get to join here with Mark. Just having watched him in the last couple of years just shined for you. And we pray over this conversation right here that it would be a part of what you have in mind for your kingdom as many women in leadership positions figure out how you're increasingly wanting to use them for your glory right where they are. So I pray that you would make this useful for your glory.

SPEAKER_04 3:11

Amen. Well, um well, just to kick off, I mean, each one of these shows is gonna have a little bit of a different angle to it. So we do have leaders coming in from all kinds of different industries who are incorporating Jesus into their missions or using their businesses to fuel the kingdom. So your specific area of focus obviously is education. Um, can you give us a little background on just like how did that start? What's the origin story for you deciding to spend your life educating children and students and how'd that come to be?

SPEAKER_01 3:39

Yeah, absolutely. Well, what one of my gifts is my parents, uh, my father was a counselor and is now home with Jesus. And my mother um raised us at home for a while. And then uh when my youngest uh uh my youngest sister was in first grade, the Lord called her to start Tree of Life Christian School. So my mommy is the founder of the school system in which I serve. She's still alive, so we really enjoy that. We've now had four we're in the fourth generation. So uh my mom started it. I've been uh at Tree of Life for 37 years and leading it for almost half of that time. And um, my kids have all graduated from there. My wife and I met at Tree of Life. She was teaching, and that's how we met, and now our grandkids are at the end.

SPEAKER_04 4:23

Wait, I didn't know that. Were you her boss?

SPEAKER_01 4:25

No, but I did uh when I asked her to marry. That could have been a dangerous question. I did I didn't have that, but when I asked her to marry me, my mom was her boss. So I wanted to say, if you say no, your job's on the line, but praise God, I didn't have to use that.

SPEAKER_04 4:37

Wow, I didn't know that exact uh that exact meeting story. That's hilarious.

SPEAKER_01 4:41

Yeah, it was good, really good.

SPEAKER_04 4:42

When did Tree of Life start? What year?

SPEAKER_01 4:44

1978.

unknown 4:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

Wow, yeah. Yeah, so that's today has five campuses, uh, more than a thousand kids, praise God. Get to love kids into loving Jesus every day.

SPEAKER_04 4:53

So did you always grow up like wanting to educate, like wanted to how did that go? Did you start off being a teacher? Like what was the the progression?

SPEAKER_01 5:00

By the time I was 12, I think I had a sense at age 12 that I wanted to teach. And and tree of life was just starting at that point, and I I would have said I want to teach a tree of life. If you'd have asked me, even as a teenager, where I want to teach, I would say tree of life. And so the Lord uh in his grace often gives us the delights of our heart, right? He gave me that desire in my heart, and then he gave me the fulfillment of that desire, and I still love it. 37 years later, I'm still doing what I love doing, both at the church and at the school. And what a gift when God calls you to to what you're passionate to do, and then you get to serve him that way in the day-to-day grace.

SPEAKER_04 5:39

Uh this isn't on our show notes, but I saw you were just named the 2025 alumnus of the year at at Worthington Christian.

SPEAKER_01 5:46

Yeah, that was kind of them for sure. I I had the privilege of going to Worthington Christian High School and I had a great experience there. And yeah, they were kind enough to recognize me at graduation. Even though is there like a rivalry between WC? In the kingdom game together. I want to see all the other Christian schools globally in the United States and Columbus, Ohio, thrive. I just came from a meeting with other heads of schools into this meeting. So we're for each other and cheering for each other. We come alongside each other. We'd like to beat each other on the athletic fields, of course. Yeah. But mostly we're there to build the body of Christ.

SPEAKER_04 6:23

Wow. Um, all right. So I did mention that you're a doctor because you are, which I always think that's super impressive. I don't know if you do anymore. You're super humble about it, so you don't really throw that into your title very often. But so your PhD was spiritual formation of middle school and high school students.

SPEAKER_01 6:38

Yeah, I have a doctorate in a PhD in educational leadership. And and at the time I remember one of my professors coming in, the dean of the department came in and said, Listen, when when you think through your dissertation topic, you're gonna want to do something that's super passionate to you because you're gonna spend two or three years of your life just pouring into that because dissertations are difficult. And I thought, well, what is it that's that important to me that I want to put that kind of life energy into? What is it that matters to me that much? And uh, it's the spiritual formation of students. So I'm in a Christian school and I care about whether those kids are growing in Christ-likeness that they meet Jesus and then grow to know him more and more. And so that's what I studied. And and shockingly, to me, I was the first person to ask the question what does spiritual formation look like at the teenage level? How do teenagers, how are they formed spiritually? What does the Holy Spirit do in young people's lives? Are Christian schools effective in the spiritual development of sixth through 12th graders? How do we know? What are we measuring? Well, what's effective, what's not effective? Never been asked before. It had never been asked, and it shocked me. So this would be 2008, 2007. So um, getting to be the first, of course, is harder ground to plow, but it becomes a big deal. So ACSI underwrote this study. Biola University professors really helped me to undergird it. 3,000 people from across the world took the study, and we learned a whole lot about how the Holy Spirit uses adults as conduits of his work in the lives of kids, what it is that's effective in the spiritual maturing, right? Spiritual development of teenagers.

SPEAKER_04 8:16

So, I mean, I feel like today that's that's more relevant now than probably even when you did it.

SPEAKER_01 8:20

Yeah, it was a lot of a long time ago. Some of the things that we found were certainly would certainly still apply to today. The foundational component of spiritual formation is it's all about relationships. So God at the core of his being is a relational God. And in the very beginning of Genesis chapter one, he says, Let us make man in our image. Well, who's the us? Us is father, which by definition is a relational term. You can't be father without a relational understanding. Son, by again, definition a relational term. And spirit, the Holy Spirit dwells within us. He is a deeply relational God, and you and I are made in his image. So if we're his image bearers and he's a relational God at his DNA level, then we also are deeply relational people. So really the bottom line about spiritual transformation is what we call relational spirituality. If you and I are going to be impacted in our Christ-likeness, it's going to be through relationships with each other, with the Holy Spirit, within ourselves. God transforms us in relationships. So then in a Christian school, what you're working on is building relationships with kids. Yeah. And the more you can build relationships with kids, the more of a conduit for the Holy Spirit you can be in their spiritual development.

SPEAKER_04 9:33

And you think that as far as like even starting at the middle school level, they're ready for that?

SPEAKER_01 9:38

Yeah, no, I think at preschool, right? I think uh the Holy Spirit is about transforming the lives of our kids in relationships at all ages. Uh they're more abstract-minded in middle school and high school, so you can begin to invite them into their own spiritual transformation process. In the younger ages, like you have elementary age kids, and your kids are getting to that stage, but in the younger ages, it's more about spiritual formation, right? You're forming the things of a spiritual nature into their lives. So you're forming prayer, or you're forming forgiveness, or you're forming repentance, or you're forming grace and love and generosity and service and all the things you want to form into your kids' lives. So we're spiritually forming them when they're young. And then um, and then as they enter into right where your kids are about to hit, we start work on transformation. And you and I are still working on both. As adults, I'm still working to form new spiritual things into my life, in my life, and I'm certainly being transformed by the Holy Spirit. He has so much work left to do. So that's what I studied, that's what I'm passionate about, and that's what we get to do in a Christian school every day.

SPEAKER_04 10:44

Man, I love that. I love it. Um, all right. Well, let's shift focus a little bit. So a lot of the guests of the show are business leaders. And um, I've talked to you a little bit about this. So a lot of times people think, you know, hey, you're an education, but education is also a business. I mean, you're not just educating kids, but you've got employees, you've got administrators, um, plus you're also dealing with parents and and teachers who, you know, they're vested into these kids' lives in different ways. So I'm sure there's lots of pressure. What um what are some things that you've learned on how to have that dual focus where you've got the kids that you're educating, you know, specifically, but you're also handling other people's lives and their livelihoods and things like that. How do you lead?

SPEAKER_01 11:22

Well, one of our uh good friends that you and I has here, as a friend, often says it all rises and falls on leadership. I think that's true. And and ultimately, if we're going to do this well as men who are seeking Jesus in our leadership, whether that's in um a corporate environment or an educational environment, this the scripture says um Jesus says, take up your cross and follow me. He doesn't say take up your cross and lead for me. He says, take up your cross and follow me. So if you and I are gonna lead well, we're gonna lead by following. Lord, I'm wanting you to lead this corporation. I'm wanting you to lead this conversation, I'm wanting you to lead this interview, I'm wanting you to lead this whatever it might be, Lord. I'm following you as you lead Tree of Life. I'm following you as you lead Rock City. We have those conversations all the time in both of those staffs. And yeah, they're a business, right? Rock City has 85 employees, Tree of Life has 200 employees. So I I get it that a lot of our listeners have employee issues and they have hiring and firing issues, and they have uh clients that they're dealing with and customers, and I do the same thing. That's what I do for a living. I'm trying to follow Jesus as he leads me while I lead what he's calling me to lead. So it's uh it's more for me at the top level, at the leadership level, at the executive level, about being a close follower. Lord, could I learn to listen really carefully to you? Because Tree of Life is your school, Rock City is your church, tithe is yours, Lord. It's a for-profit, but it's still yours. And since it's yours, I'm needing to follow you as I lead it. So teach me to follow you very closely. Pastor Chad will tease me about this quite a bit, even af after he hears this. I often say, Lord, don't let me run ahead of you. Don't let me lag behind you. Certainly, Lord, I'm prone to wander. So don't let me wander off. Just keep me in step with your Holy Spirit that I could follow you as I lead. I think that applies to the world. I've stolen that prayer.

SPEAKER_04 13:35

I've stolen that from you. You have prayed that prayer all the time.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

Chad laughs at me about it because I pray it so often. But it's so sincere because I am I am prone to run ahead. That's my nature. I'm a driven person, much like you are. And that's a dangerous place to be out in front of God. Yeah. I'm also very prone to wander. And I need him to just keep me right in step with him, aligned with what he's doing in my home, in my personal life, certainly in my professional calling.

SPEAKER_04 14:02

Let me ask you this question. Um, because I've gotten this asked to me before, and just based on everything you're saying, like I got to hear your perspective on it. When you're leading from a Christian worldview and you're a leader in business, there's still difficult conversations that need to be had. There's still results that need to be achieved. Like, we're not immune to that just because we love Jesus and we're trying to, you know, love our neighbor and do our best that way. Is there anything that you've learned over the years, like how to have those difficult conversations, even with somebody you know at the heart level? You're both connected, you both share the mission, you both share the love of Christ, but they're just not getting it done. Like, how do you handle those conversations?

SPEAKER_01 14:40

Yeah, and you and I are both driven personalities too. So, and I think probably most people who are listening to this would be sort of a type A, I'm a driven person. Yes. Um, I'm I'm pretty sure it's important for us to learn to listen before we speak, even in conversations like this one. And if we could learn to tune our ears to the Lord, even in the difficult situations. Okay, this employee is going to be on an improvement plan, or I'm about to release this person, or we're redirecting completely where they are or where they're headed. Lord, I'm pretty sure that's what you're calling me to do. Now I'm asking that you would give me the words in which to, and not only that, but prepare their heart for this conversation too, Lord, which whether they know you or not. Would you prepare their heart for this conversation? Sometimes that's with a school parent, sometimes that could be with an employee, of course. And in the church, somebody could be just walking in. We don't even know at all. Lord, there's a there's a great passage in um in 1 Samuel. It's it's uh it's in chapter 9. Um Saul is looking for this for his father's lost donkeys, and he says this about Samuel. Here's Samuel's reputation. Um, he's a man of God, uh, he is highly regarded, and everything he says comes true. I mean, those three things sound really good to me. He's a man of God, he's highly regarded, and everything he says comes true. How can that be that everything he says comes true? And I'm pretty sure it's because he only spoke what he heard. So even while we're dismissing somebody, even while we're redirecting somebody, doing the hard things, correcting someone, and I hope people would do this for me too when I sit in that seat. If I could speak what I know the Lord, what I'm hearing from him, I know the Lord is calling you in a different direction because the direction you're headed in is not working. So he must have something else for you. And I'm listening for him, even as I'm walking. I'm I'm hoping to be listening for him. And the hard things, could we always learn to speak only that which we've heard? I think the answer is yes. I'm not there yet, but I'd like to figure that out. That's really good.

SPEAKER_04 16:57

That's a really good advice. I'm gonna take it. Well, in that vein, I think um you're one of the people, personally in my life, who I think as a role model of just consistently trying to walk with Jesus, I've watched you do that. I've also watched you in all the different accolades or things that you've achieved, never take any credit for any of it. Somehow you're you always redeflect it to Jesus, and I admire that about you. How do you, with all the titles that we listed at you know in the beginning and all the different various things that you do, how do you personally stay close to the Lord? Are there rhythms or anything that you've built in where it allows you to be like that?

SPEAKER_01 17:35

Oh yeah, I appreciate that. Um I think there's actually a desperation for me, and I think I know you have it too. Um in the day-to-day, uh, I I don't breathe without him. And the more I'm aware of that, the better. I certainly never succeed without him. And I'm not gonna be faithful to him in any given day, except for that he is first faithful to me and holds me very close to him. So I I hear what you're saying about all the things you get to do, and praise God for the things that he allows us to get to do. What a gift from him that he would again, as I said, that he would allow us to do anything with his name on it. It's incredible. But um there's an utter dependence, and as I grow older, I think I'm more and more aware of it. One of my um prayers that I wish I could tell you I prayed more often, that I I pray a lot, but not enough. It's uh it's from John the Baptist in John chapter three, and and John has risen to great prominence, and yet here comes Jesus, and so John's prominence is declining and Jesus is increasing. And and John has already said, Hey, the Lamb of God, go follow him, and so people are. And some of his followers come and say, Hey, doesn't it bother you that the folks who used to follow you are now following him? And John said, I'm the best man, he's the groom, and his bride is coming to him. Praise God. How does the best man feel about nothing but excitement? And then he said, This he must increase and I must decrease. And and I'm finding that to be very true, and it's something that I want more and more in my life. Less of me and more of him is easier said than done. So, especially when things are going well, right? And it's not success that we're pursuing, it is not success that we're pursuing, it's faithfulness. It's faithfulness. We're not trying to at the end of our lives say, I was successful because I did this, this, this, this, or this. That isn't it. Uh but if someone at the end of our lives would say he was faithful in these ways, that matters much more to the Lord and hopefully to us than success.

SPEAKER_04 19:44

Okay. Off script question here. I think a lot of a lot of folks that I know struggle sometimes with how long do I have to remain faithful in order to know that either the fruit uh that's coming out of this is truly what God wants? Is there breadcrumbs where I can see, like, hey, the Holy Spirit did lead me in that direction because I'm seeing something pay off. Do you ever struggle with that, or is that something that you've seen where it's like, hey, faithfulness sometimes it's for a week, sometimes it might be for years until you see the fullness of whatever God had in mind come to fruition. How does that work?

SPEAKER_01 20:19

Oh, yeah, for sure. Uh um one of my favorite subtitles for a book is is Um A Long Obedience in the Same Direction. That that phrase by itself is is challenging, but I think it's the reality of the calling of our lives. He is calling us to a long obedience, and he's also equipped us to a long obedience because in our nature we would not be. Um Solomon, you know, at the end of the book of Ecclesiastes, the wisest man to ever live, except for Jesus. Solomon says, When all is said and done, it's really only about two things, right? Honor God and keep his commandments. Yeah. Justice, long obedience. But yes, I mean, when you're in the middle of, Lord, am I doing what you're calling me to do? Are you still wanting me to do this? Do you want a different direction from me? Father, I'm I'm listening, and all we can do is sort of a moment by moment, sometimes literally moment by moment step in a direction that we we think he's calling us in, and we're asking for him by the Spirit to give us confirmation. Lord, is this what you're calling? Am I hearing from you rightly? And if I'm not, would you please show me something else? I probably overuse fleeces in my life where I say, Lord, I'm gonna lay a few things out before you, and I don't know if this is you or not. And if it's not you, okay, just show me what is. But here are some some things, some indicators. Lord, would you indicate to me in my life what it is that you'd have me to do in this space or in this space or in this space? And then I find him faithful. I don't think God is a God who likes to sort of hide his will from us or keep things in the shadow. That's not how he is. He he is a loving God. He wants us to walk in his ways and his will. And the best way to do that is just to stay near him. And sometimes staying near him is I don't really know, Lord, if this is you or not, but I'm in. So will you show me and redirect me? Help me. That's that desperation.

SPEAKER_04 22:21

Yeah, and it's so counter to how we operate. So for those of us in business, it's really easy to read data points and look at inputs and outputs and constantly be tweaking things because we're so used to the immediate satisfaction of the data and the information coming back at us. It's a nice loop. Yeah. Yeah, but the just walking in a step with the Holy Spirit is more of a relational thing and a day-by-day thing. And it's it's a heart level thing. It's not just input-output spreadsheets and make tweaks. It's it's a lot different than that. So I'm glad you said that because I think a lot of we we kind of live in uh in two different worlds where we have the business worldly aspect that we're after, and then we also have this relational thing that we're doing with God, and they operate somewhat similar sometimes, but often very, very different.

SPEAKER_01 23:06

Yeah, no, we we use a lot of data at church, we use a lot of data at school. Those things really help to inform us. Um, but really our our decision making is here, right? Uh, data points are great, they do inform us, and we can lay those before the Lord and make wise decisions coming out of what we hope he's directing us in. But really, the foundational document, the data points that we're really looking for are the principles of the word. And of course, data can help inform that. Okay, that's supporting what I've been praying about, and okay.

SPEAKER_02 23:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:38

Um, but the foundation is not what are the data points telling me?

SPEAKER_04 23:42

I look at all those things too, but well, speaking of data, uh whether it's nationally, internationally, I feel like with the things that are happening inside of Christian schools and what you get exposed to um just to the various different organizations that you lead, what are some stories or themes that you're seeing right now? Because it would seem as if Christian school has more demand than ever. Um what are some things you're seeing?

SPEAKER_01 24:05

Yeah, Tree of Life five years ago had three campuses and and today has five campuses, where actually we put two editions on in the last three years, and we're putting two editions on in the next year and a half to serve more kids. And so the opportunity in Christian schooling globally uh is incredible. And also here in Columbus at Tree of Life's experience, but many other Christian schools as well. Um, there are between 10 or 15,000 Christian schools in the United States, there are 90,000 Christian schools in Africa. We think there are 25,000 Christian schools in India. Wait, wait, what? 90,000. So the Christian school movement, it's a movement of the Lord, obviously. You can't explain it any other way. Um, I was in Africa a couple years ago in Rwanda. I'll tell you a quick two stories about that. I met a man, I was a guest there, right? I went, I was traveling with the leadership of ACSI, this umbrella organization that leads Christian schools. And so, you know, we're the guests, supposedly the honored guest. And we're walking into rooms with people who are doing incredible things who are really the ones to be honored in the room. And I'm sitting across the table and he said, So tell me about yourself. A man from Africa said, from Nigeria said, Tell me about yourself. So I did, and I lead a school in Columbus, Ohio, et cetera. I said, What about you? Tell me about you. He said, I lead 4,000 schools in Nigeria. I'm like, okay. Four housing schools. Yeah, why don't you speak and I'll be quiet and I have much to learn from you. And and the other thing was cool while we were there, we met a woman. Her name is Beatrice. I just got to see her again this last year. Beatrice um was in uh you remember the genocide that happened in Rwanda 20 years ago? So she was in the tribe that was being persecuted, and and she fled to South Africa to save her life. And a couple years later, after it had settled down, the Lord called Beatrice back to Rwanda, and her calling was a ministry to the opposite tribe's kids in a very small village that had no electricity, no running water, nothing, no education. And so she felt like she was being called by God to go to that village and serve those kids in a Christian school. So she literally pulled her car up in that. I've seen the village, I've seen the school. And um, she opened her trunk under a tree and she started teaching those kids in that village who had no other access to education, reading, writing, nothing. Now I think it's 700 kids. Now she has two different buildings there and she serves 700 kids. So she started a Christian school out of her trunk under a tree in Rwanda, and now she serves 700 kids every day in the name of Jesus. So Christian schooling across the world is exploding and in Columbus, Ohio, too. Praise God.

SPEAKER_04 26:43

That's unbelievable. I mean, the stories like that that you hear, I mean, there's certain things I feel like that happen here that seem unbelievable, but then when you hear stories that are happening in other countries that like only the Holy Spirit can pull off. Exactly. Wow. He's at work all over the world. Wow. Unbelievable. Um all right, tell me some of the obstacles because I feel like um at least in the news, we've seen opposition, you know, from the other side, whether it's trying to slow the progress of Christian schools, whether it's trying to, you know, some of the things that have come out that you know would be tax advantages or um, you know, ways that families can access dollars to put their kids into Christian schools. I feel like there's opposition to that. Sure. So as a Christian parent and then other Christian business leaders, like what are some things that we can do, um, A, to help? And then is there anything you can point out that maybe we should know about?

SPEAKER_01 27:33

Yeah, maybe I can take a step back further from that. Uh Revelation chapter 12. I mean, I think you and I are probably a chapter. Revelation chapter 12 is this incredible chapter about how God is birthing new things in the Old Testament through the 12 tribes, which he calls a woman. And then he says, also there was another time when this woman gave birth to a child, and and the enemy, Satan, was standing at the feet of the child being born in order to devour the child. And of course, the child is called into Egypt and escapes. So here we are at Christmas time, and and we're watching this sort of spiritual battle that unfolds with Herod trying to kill all the baby boys. But what Revelation 12 tells us is that there's actually a cosmic battle happening in unseen spaces that is attempting to kill whatever God is bringing life to. So, yeah, the Christian school movement is a part of that. Tithe is a part of that. Christian corporate leaders, business leaders are a part of that. Whenever God builds something new, whenever he births something new, we know from the scriptures, Revelation 12, that Satan is opposing everything that God is building. And we should just anticipate that and expect that and call it what it is. So when tithe is launched, God's gonna support that. Satan's gonna come against that. That's real life. When tree of life is growing, um, God is doing that, not me. It's his school, and so it's him drawing kids to himself. We should expect opposition. Rock City is growing the body of Christ. This is what the scripture says is true and right. So are we getting that in education? Sure. I mean, we have vouchers now in Ohio. The big beautiful bill just passed a federal tax credit, which will be a huge future for us in 2027. But there are lawsuits happening right now, even in the state of Ohio, to try to stop the vouchers, to try to have us serve less kids. So, yeah, are we in a battle? Yeah, we're all in a battle. In whatever calling we're in, whether it's education or the church or corporate in our families, when God births something new, Satan is there to try to thwart what he is birthing. Praise God. The rest of the chapter said Satan was unable to do so and God brought victory. And then actually the the chapter ends by saying, and Satan was ticked that God had protected the woman and he went off to attack her offspring. That's that would be you and me.

SPEAKER_04 29:54

Yeah, that's great, isn't it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:56

Just where we want to be. Hey, at least we know. We know, we've been told. We've been told.

SPEAKER_04 30:00

So it tree you guys have business partners, and we are one of those, and we're we love being one of those. Uh but is there is there anything else that you see as far as from Christian schools and education, business partnership? Uh, I see tons of reasons in my own day-to-day life on like why businesses shouldn't get involved with Christian education.

SPEAKER_02 30:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:19

If more kids are educated with a Christian worldview when they graduate someday, you and I have talked about this, they're going to be looking for Christian businesses to work at. Why would we educate them in this way? And then when they go to enter the workforce and use their skills for the rest of their life, um, work under Christian leaders, work at Christian businesses, impact the kingdom with whatever vocations they choose. Um but should there be more of that? Is there opportunity for more of that? What do you see with the the Christian businesses and then also schools partnering more?

SPEAKER_01 30:48

Yeah, that's a great question. I absolutely there should be an increase in that. I think the I think the wiring that the Lord or the design that the Lord has in the body of Christ, and we've talked about this as well, is between priests and kings, right? The more effectively that religious leaders, that Christian leaders and Christian organizations can connect with kings. None of us like to be called priests and none of us like to be called kings. But the principle of God built the Old Testament body through priests aligning with kings well. As long as they both walked with him, the kingdom in Israel thrived. So too today, we have business leaders like yourself looking to, you don't want to be called a king, but here we are, and looking to be aligned well with what's happening in the body of Christ, the movement of Christ in the church and in Christian schooling, etc. So to the extent that priests and kings can come together in alignment, then the kingdom of God, the body of Christ, thrives. So, yes, in a Christian school like Tree of Life, we are we are desiring more kingdom partners, business partners who can see one day I'm gonna want to hire these graduates because these kids were taught to think biblically from the time they were three. And they grew up in homes that were teaching them that way and in the church as well. And so this child has been spiritually formed to be a godly young man or young woman from the time they were little. The home did it, the church did it, and the school did it. And between the three, the home and the church and the school, that's 98% of a child's life. So if we can be aligned in that way, and then if the and if the corporate world, if the business owners and leaders can come alongside and say, I think this is a worthwhile investment, both for my future business, because I'm gonna want employees like these kids out of these schools, and we turn out incredible kids by God's grace, and incredible employees. Often we get calls and saying, Hey, if you have any more kids, we'd very much like to have them because they've gotten these things from childhood on.

SPEAKER_02 32:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:47

And they know the truths and they've embraced the truths and they have a work ethic, and they've been expected to study and and to thrive. And so are we turning out great citizens in in our country and in our workplaces? Yes, but even more kingdom citizens.

SPEAKER_04 33:02

One of my favorite things that happens at Rock City is when there's a panel with you and Patrick on it. Oh, yes, yes, and you never miss an opportunity to poke phone at how often he was in your office.

SPEAKER_01 33:11

Patrick is brilliant. Yeah. And I'm proud to say he's one of our graduates.

SPEAKER_04 33:15

Yeah. That's awesome. That's really cool. Um one question I have as you're talking about this, and we've got all these different various perspectives. So just before the show, I was having a conversation with someone here about burnout. And how do you do so many things without getting so fatigued and burned out that you can't continue? Is what's the secret to your stamina?

SPEAKER_01 33:36

Yeah, that's a great question. How do you do that? Um, I try to live in my strengths. I think I've learned over all these years what uh God has wired me to do, called me to do, equipped me to do by his spirit. And um by his grace, I'm able to generally hire or have other people around me do the things I'm not good at. And there are lots of things I'm not I'm not good at, and they drain me. So I get to hire other people doing those things, or at the church, other people have the responsibility of doing things that I'm not good at. And if I was doing them, uh I would be burned out quickly. And so I think learning to live in the wiring and the calling that God's given you in and the strengths that He's given you. It's not that we don't need to be stronger in our weaknesses, I think we do, but those things drain us, at least for me. Yeah, they drain me. And so I I am surrounding my people with myself with people who do their work better than I ever could. By hiring people around you who are better than you, which you know from your leadership as well, is essential. And when they're better than you, they're carrying their load better than you could anyway. And so you can just hand it to them and give it off, and then you can do what God's called you to do.

SPEAKER_04 34:48

That's good. That's really, really good. Uh all right, I've got this written. I'm just gonna read it word for word. Like you so you're obviously you love being a parent. You and you and Janna did that uh six times. Yes, we did. Raising six kids. I've got to ask you about being six kids and nine years, yeah. So, and you're around parents all the time, you know, and kids all the time. So, what encouragement would you give to young parents today? And then are there one or two things that when you look back at you know how you guys raised your family that you were like, yeah, that was right on the money. I would give that advice to any family right now. What would you say?

SPEAKER_01 35:20

Well, um, children are a gift from the Lord, right? And is it's exhausting and it's a great way to be tired. We now have nine grandkids, and that's a blast. They're all little. We have nine grandkids, eight and under. We had six kids in nine years. So were we exhausted? Yes. Did we have to work on our marriage? Yes, especially when the next child would come along. It was like we called the first year survival mode, and we would just kind of hunker down.

SPEAKER_04 35:44

Every time?

SPEAKER_01 35:44

Yeah, because we learned, right? The first year of a new baby being born is like, okay, it's gonna be tough. We would try to date each other still as husband and wife, but that was hard. You know, these these early years are very difficult and challenging. And and yet I would say to parents, yeah, the ch the children are a gift from the Lord. Remind yourself every day, even when you're frustrated and even when they're pushing your buttons, they're a gift from Jesus to you, and and you're ultimately giving them back, right? All you're really doing is stewarding for 18 years old. So all my kids are grown and gone. And praise God, I still have a relationship with them. And the other thing I would tell you about parenting, especially as you had in the middle and high school years, is keep the relationship. There are going to be things that you're gonna want to break relationship over. There are gonna be frustrating things that are kids push your button just like you pushed your parents' button. But when your kids are my kids' age, my kids are now 24 to 33. I have still a great relationship with each one of them. And even though I did bad things as a parent and they did bad things at kids, we kept the relationship. Yeah, and and they kept the relationship with each other. So this relational model for their spiritual life, God wired us relationally. That's who we are at the DNA level. So for us to stay in relationship, even when it's difficult, and it is. The other thing I'd tell you is speaking to business leaders about um parenting, um, early on, my wife and I, I'm sure we stole it from somebody. I wish I could tell you who it was. We uh we we were convinced that we should um embrace a mission statement for our family. So just like we do in work, right? Strategic planning and mission and vision and core values and all the things that we talk about in work circles, uh we decided to have a mission statement for our family. So we prayed about that for a while, and it ended up being Luke 252, straight from the scripture. It says that Jesus grew in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and man. Tree of life built its entire curriculum around that verse. And so did my family. So uh wisdom, Jesus grew in wisdom, that is uh godly biblical thinking, right? Knowledge, but more is spirit-informed insights into knowledge. So, wisdom, he grew in stature, that's his physical well-being, his emotional health. He grew in favor with God, so there's his spiritual well-being and strength, and he grew in favor with man's social well-being and strength. And so we felt like if Jesus grew in wisdom, stature, and favor with God and man, that was probably good for him. That's probably good enough for our kids. So we set out to say, what does that look like? That our kids would grow in, and we sort of set that up on a board, like on a dry erase board, and said, this is the goal that our kids would know and walk with Jesus all the days of their lives, that they would grow in wisdom, stature, and favor with God and man. And then we said, okay, if that's where we're headed, what's the road look like? And of course, in truth, it goes like this, of course, up and down. But we were directionally headed, that was the key for us. We were directionally headed toward each one of our kids having a relationship with Jesus for the rest of their lives and growing in wisdom and stature and faith with God and man. And that direction drove our course for better and worse, right? That's how parenting works. But having a mission statement and then being strategic about how you're gonna get there. So we would do daily devotions. I did it at the dinner table.

SPEAKER_04 39:07

I was gonna say, I was wondering if you're gonna bring that up because I've heard from your sons that this was a regular thing.

SPEAKER_01 39:12

We did because it was the we had six little kids, so it was the only time they were quiet. That's when they put food in their mouth.

SPEAKER_02 39:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:18

So at dinner, I would teach a Bible story. And then we had a lot of fun with it. Because over time, the older kids would interrupt me and say, Well, you left that part out, Dad, Dad, you left that part out. And then um, so we taught the word every night at dinner. It could be five minutes or ten minutes, and sometimes when I would forget because I was tired, my kids would be like, Dad, it's story time. I'm like, Okay, good. If that's happening in my family, I'm good. And then uh at bedtime for us, it was um uh song time and prayer time. And you know how much, especially kids, want to stay up later. Oh, yeah. So our kids would want to sing longer. Okay, you know, we're gonna sing worship longer. Great. This little light of mine can be sung over and over. I will never march in the infantry. All these songs that we taught them, uh Jesus loves me, all of them. Contemporary worship songs at the time. And then we would pray together. So every day we did family devotions. Again, it's that spiritual formation piece, right? We're trying to form the things of the spirit into our children's lives. We try to do that in our work spaces too. What's the mission statement in your family? What's the mission statement in your home? And what are you doing in the day-to-day? What data points, right? It's the same in a business. Yeah. What are you doing in the day to day to get there?

SPEAKER_04 40:33

Man, I love the point of just because there is a lot of times where you're tired. Yes. But just understanding uh when to when to just suck it up and keep going, because there's certain things about our kids that it's it's worth doing it tired for.

SPEAKER_01 40:46

And you We're gonna sing longer. Oh, yeah. We're gonna sing longer. And if they pray infinite, okay, okay. Yep, okay. Yeah, I get to do it now, Mark, with my grandkids. So when they come over to dinner, they know Pops is gonna tell them a story.

SPEAKER_04 40:59

And uh Are your kids still interrupting and telling you what you left out?

SPEAKER_01 41:02

Uh my grandkids do now. My grandkids do that's so cool, and I love that. So you got little kids who are listening to stories about the kingdom straight from the word, of course. I just steal them straight from the Bible. And then uh, as they've heard them over and over, they're like, Pops, you left this part out. And I'm like, perfect.

SPEAKER_04 41:18

That's so cool. I love it. Uh all right, I got two more questions, and they're both these are these are the two that I'm most excited about to ask you because uh you taught me this. Um I don't know if you remember the breakfast, but I've pulled this out and I've been able to give this gift of like this information to countless people who are walking through similar things. But um I was on my own journey, I was scared, I was nervous, I had a lot of doubt. And remember you sat. You said, Well, what's the what's the opposite of faith? And I thought it was fear and doubt. I thought it was everything that I was experiencing.

SPEAKER_02 41:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 41:51

And uh you looked at me and you you were smiling, and I was like, All right, I don't think I answered it right. That's clearly not the answer. And you said, the opposite of faith is assurance because if you knew how it was going to turn out, you knew exactly how you know things would play out from here, you it would require no faith, you'd be fine with taking the steps.

SPEAKER_02 42:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 42:08

The fear and doubt are the stepping stones, and there's steps on a way to a deeper faith and a deeper relationship with God. Yeah. And um, man, that was just for me, it was like a light bulb one-off, and uh, it's helped me through countless situations. So, what would you say to the business leader today who wants to incorporate their faith fully at their work or at home or whatever, and just is a little apprehensive to do it. Um, is there any encouragement that you would give them to just go for it?

SPEAKER_01 42:35

Yeah, that's a great question. I I I think start with little steps. Ask the Lord to give you uh opportunities and then look for them. And when he gives them to you, commit to him that ask him to give you the courage to do what he's opening the door for you to do. I still do this in my life. I call it living with my hands up, right? It's like, Lord, I'm ready. If you're if you're doing something, if you're moving, okay, I'm I'm Magic Johnson.

SPEAKER_04 43:00

It's yeah, it's coming around the back and the ball's coming to you somehow.

SPEAKER_01 43:03

You best be ready for the ball to come. So I I would say if you're taking early steps in these things, just in faith. Okay, Lord, I believe, I believe, and um I'm a little unsure about this, but that's actually what faith is, right? There are lots of things in my life that I don't have faith in. Like I don't have faith in the fact that this table is wood. I I know that to be true. This I don't have faith actually anymore about heaven being real. I just know. So for me, that's not a faith issue or that Jesus is God. Those things have in whatever way transitioned for me out of faith into a deep assurance that I just know that I know that I know. But in the day to day, Lord, is this what I am I hearing you rightly? Am I step stepping in the direction that you're calling me in? Okay, Lord, I I'm listening, I'm moving, I'm, and then open the door, give me an opportunity, and then give me the courage, Lord. The opportunity. Help me to see. Give me eyes to see. Like when you were walking through that, I was watching you with a great smile on my face because that's when you're most intimately connected with Jesus, because you're not sure. When you're sure, you're sure. That doesn't really require a whole lot of faith. That's assurance. True, right? Faith is the hope, it is the conviction of things not yet seen. It's the hope of things, the assurance of things hoped for, right? So um in business leadership, and we do this all the time, right? I I get to meet oftentimes with people who aren't brothers and sisters in Christ as well. And it's like, Lord, if you if if you want to do something, I'm listening. If you want to take this in a different direction, or if you want the school to do this, if you want the church to do this, Lord, you you seem to have given the church this nice new property in Polaris. Are we supposed to build this out? Lord, we're listening. We think we're supposed to build it out. How big would you like us to build this, Lord? We're that big, Lord? Is that you or is that us? I mean, all those sort of insecurities. Oh, yeah. Lord, I'm feeling unsure about this. Yeah, that's called faith, Todd. I want you to step in my direction anyway. And our faith is really utterly dependent on his faithfulness. But it's actually less about our faith and more about his faithfulness. And we come to that over years. Lord, I'm gonna take this step because I think you're calling me to that.

SPEAKER_02 45:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:25

I've found you faithful so many times before. And if it's a misstep, you love me, you'll you'll redirect me. Lord, I'm pretty sure I'm supposed to launch tithe in an economic criteria or an economic environment where it shouldn't have worked. It wouldn't make any sense at all. I've had that so many times in my life where I've had uh large church pastors say to me, Todd, either it's the Lord or you've lost your mind. And I'm not sure which one it is, Todd. And I'm like, I'm sometimes I'm not quite sure which one it is. We're about to find out either, but let's step and see, because I think this might be what Jesus is doing.

SPEAKER_04 46:03

Yeah, since we've had that discussion, I mean, I've probably had a couple of dozen um with others. So I I that's I think the beauty of having relationships and having mentors is that as wisdom gets transferred, it can also get passed along, it can multiply.

SPEAKER_01 46:17

Oh, you've given me so much of yours, brother, over those last couple of years. I've been so blessed.

SPEAKER_04 46:21

Well, there's been guys where it's like, yeah, you got the fear, you got that up, but for some reason they keep feeling the pull. It's like if the Holy Spirit just keeps pulling you right towards that scary thing, but you and you can't shake it. You're probably supposed to go take the step. That's been my advice.

SPEAKER_01 46:33

You don't have to take a leap unless he says leap. Take a step, right? Um, it's the it's the it's the crossing of the Jordan River in Joshua chapter three and four. I want you to step in. Well, Lord, it's swollen, it's flood stage. You want the priest to carry the you want the priest to carry the the covenant, the box of your life into this. You'll float away, Lord. We don't want the ark to float away. I just want you to step in. So then they step in in the water upstream, right? Dries up and they cross on dry ground. So that's the Lord. He often just says, I I'm gonna do it. Yeah, I have it. You step in.

SPEAKER_04 47:09

Yeah. All right. So that's a mind-blowing story. This is a nice transition to Christmas. So as we're recording this, this probably won't be a release until after Christmas, but that's okay. Um, we're a couple of weeks from Christmas, and you've always done such a good job at some of the men's groups and things that I've watched you speak at, or if you know, those that go to Rock City, we get to see you oftentimes in December, you know, come up and talk about how Christmas should blow our minds and just the wonder of Christmas.

SPEAKER_02 47:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 47:37

So, like as we end this, would you just give us a few minutes on why should it blow our minds? Yeah, it's good.

SPEAKER_01 47:43

Here, here's the truth: a lot of a lot of truth about this in life. Little children get it right. They get Christmas right. That look in their eyes of Christmas, that wonder and awe of Christmas, the excitement about Christmas, they're much closer to the truth of it than we are. As we get older, we kind of uh have heard the story many times and we've experienced it and we've walked it. And and I read it over and over again every Christmas, and I have for a lot of years, you know, 40-some years. So it's there's not new verses, it's the same verses that I read over and over. But the Lord always shows up in new ways, and I'm always captured by new things as I read his word, because that's what the Spirit does. But um, but we we would be extremely unwise to uh not look at those children's faces and say, Yeah, I need to be there. And here's one of the ways that I take myself there, and I'm gonna do it on Sunday uh in the sermon. Um, Jesus, when he came in the flesh, the incarnate Christ was fully God, 100% God. When you saw Jesus, the Bible's very clear, you saw the living God. In him was light and life, and the living God resided in Jesus, in the flesh. And he was also fully man. Well, look, that's beyond my comprehension. I would say that that's impossible because my brain really can't comprehend how you can be fully God and fully man simultaneously. And so I love to ask a few questions that just help blow our minds. If he's fully God and fully man, did he have to learn how to walk? Well, in our experience, we would all say, well, yes, because he's fully man. Every man has to learn how to walk. That's right. But he's also fully God. He would not have had to learn how to walk if he's fully God, because he created walking and it's inherent in him. So which one is it? I think it's the first, by the way. I think he had to learn a lot. The scripture says he did learn some things along the way. Um, did he have to learn how to talk? Did he but those two are easier for me? Did he have to learn he was the Messiah? I mean, the living God, did he need Mary to sit him down at age four and say, Jesus? I mean, you know, you know young boys. Oh, yeah. So imagine sitting down with a young boy and saying, son, sit down. I have something serious to tell you. You are God. To which the average young boy would be like, Of course I am. The whole world revolves around me, right? That's what they would. Did Jesus just inherently know? Filled with the Spirit as the living God? Because that's who he is, fully God. And he's also fully man. So no, he wouldn't have inherently. So which one is it? There's enough here to make us just think, oh wow, wow, incarnation, God became flesh and walked among us, Emmanuel God with us. Can you picture Mary? Um, uh Max Lakato asked this question in a book called God Came Near. Can you picture Mary saying to Jesus, hey, hey, Jesus, it's a beautiful starry night. Let's go count the stars. To which Jesus says, What? Not necessary, mom. I can tell you the number, or do you want to know their names? I actually named them too, Mom, or okay, mom, let's go count the stars. I mean, how did that go? The living God was in the flesh. Joseph, son, I would like to teach you how to build this next, carpenters together, age 12. No, no, no, Jesus, that's not it. That's not how I want you to use the hammer. He's talking to the living God. Did Jesus ever say, Dad, dad, dad, dad? Because you know, we dad gets we dads get it wrong a lot.

SPEAKER_02 51:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:24

A lot. So did Jesus ever look at his dad and say, Dad, look, look around at all that I've created. It was one sentence. How did I do? You're showing me how to use a hammer, Dad. Really? And I'm not sure that Jesus ever did say that. But we we should ask ourselves a lot of questions like that at Christmas and just be stuck in the wonder of it all. God Almighty took on flesh in the womb, became a baby, the God of the universe, utterly dependent on a woman. None of that makes any sense. It's just glorious. Glorious. And so I hope this Christmas all of us will just be struck, overwhelmed by the wonder of it all.

SPEAKER_04 52:10

Yeah, how easy it is to uh to lose sight of just some of those wonderful. Our familiarity, right?

SPEAKER_01 52:17

Our familiarity gets in the way. Mine does too. So I make it a spiritual discipline every year. Read the passages, read the passages, meditate, listen to Christian music over and over and over again. Lord, would you captivate me again, please? Because you know me. I need you to captivate me.

SPEAKER_04 52:33

Wow. Yeah, I mean, just the simple questions that they're unanswerable. Right. So it does. It makes you stop and pause and think.

SPEAKER_01 52:41

There is a crazy verse. It's it's um Hebrews chapter 5, verse 8. It says that Jesus learned obedience through that which he suffered. Like when you read that verse, you just think, wait a minute. The God of the universe learned one thing. Learned obedience. Hmm. I don't know. There is a mystery here that blows my mind.

SPEAKER_04 53:08

Which is why it's going to be so cool to get to heaven so face to face.

SPEAKER_01 53:11

Yeah. Face to face.

SPEAKER_04 53:12

Wow. Well, thank you for doing this. What a privilege for me, brother.

SPEAKER_01 53:16

What a privilege.

SPEAKER_04 53:17

Yeah. Obviously, time is uh is a very valuable uh resource that is not unlimited. So thank you for doing this. I hope that people get uh quite a bit out of it. I know I did. Um I've gotten a lot of your wisdom over the years. So uh this little way to give back and hope some other people get a glimpse that might not otherwise know you. Um I'm very, very happy to do it. So keep up the great work, brother.

SPEAKER_01 53:38

The Lord is using you powerfully. I love you. I love watching what Jesus is doing in your life.

SPEAKER_04 53:48

Thank you for watching the First and Focus show. If you enjoyed today's episode, make sure to hit like, subscribe, and then share with a friend.